To The Core: An Education Podcast For Parents

Episode Three: Should We Worry About Pandemic Learning Loss?

• Dr. Megan Allen, NBCT • Season 1 • Episode 3

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Does it hurt children to measure pandemic learning loss? Are we going to stigmatize an entire generation of kids? And WHAT do we do as parents about standardized tests and this upcoming school year?

In this episode of To The Core, we get to the core of these questions with Dr. Jemelleh Nurse Coes, the 2014 Georgia Teacher of the Year and the Director of Teacher Leadership Programs at Mount Holyoke College. We'll tackle this issue in a way that helps give us some much-needed peace of mind as parents and caregivers. The best advice you'll receive from Dr. Coes? As parents, just focus on making your child feel invincible. The rest will come.

You can read the New York Times article that inspired this conversation here.

Other resources:

You can connect with Dr. Jemelleh Nurse Coes at @JemellehCoes on social media platforms. She's there!

Have a question you'd like us to tackle on To The Core? Submit it here.

For information on tutoring, academic coaching, or parent support services offered by The Community Classroom, please visit www.thecommunityclassroom.com. 

Speaker 1:

Is there such a thing as pandemic learning loss. And are we going to stigmatize an entire generation of children? If we think about measuring it? Oh, I don't know this whole topic as a mama and an educator makes my stomach kind of just roll up and knots, but fear not today. We have an amazing guest expert, Dr. Jamila nurse CO's. She is the 2014 Georgia teacher of the year. She is a passionate educator and special educator. And most importantly, she is a mama of two who is going to talk us through and calm our nerves about this idea of pandemic learning loss. We're so happy that you're here with us today. Welcome to the core. Hello and welcome to the core. I'm your host, Dr. Megan Allen, the owner operator of the community classroom, a tutoring and academic coaching center in Florence, Massachusetts, that serve students in Western, Massachusetts and nationwide. I'm also the 2010 Florida teacher of the year and education nerd. The step-mom to fourteens and mama have one toddler, a runner, a lover of dad jokes and an educator for almost 20 years. In this podcast, we will answer parent questions about education and learning. Welcome to the core.

Speaker 2:

All right, listeners, welcome to today's edition of, to the core. I am super pumped about our conversation today with me. We have someone that I greatly admire. She's brilliant. She's passionate. She's a ball of energy and she will always make you laugh. I have with us Dr. Jamila nurse pose. Welcome Jamila.

Speaker 3:

Thank you so so much for having me, Megan, it is always a pleasure to talk to you and engage with you and to pick your brain and to learn from you and just be here with your audience today. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2:

You've got it. Our pleasure and something super exciting and specific to the Western Massachusetts listeners. Uh, Jamila is the new director of the masters of arts of teacher leadership at Mount Holyoke college. So she's going to be visiting the valley soon for the first time.

Speaker 3:

I cannot wait. I hear, so there are lots of beautiful places in the world, but I hear that Western mass is one of the most beautiful places. So I cannot wait to enjoy all of that. So I am looking forward to visiting berries.

Speaker 2:

It's funny that you say it's beautiful. I have been here for six years, moved from Florida and I, I probably stop on the side of the road, probably three or four times a week. You take a picture of something that looks like it should be a postcard, like a beautiful red barn, or like a roadside stands selling like raw honey and, you know, cut your own flowers. It's gorgeous. You're going to love it. I cannot

Speaker 3:

Wait.

Speaker 2:

So switching from a light to kind of a heavier topic, that's on a lot of our minds and Jamila. I know in addition to being an educator, you also are a mom of two. So you can relate to this topic as a parent as well. But today's parent question. It actually comes from a New York times article in April, but the question is, does it hurt children to measure pandemic learning loss? So are we stigmatizing an entire generation by measuring any kind of learning loss or unfinished learning from the pandemic, which we are still in. So I'll pause there. Jamella uh, would love to hear your thoughts on that question. Yeah.

Speaker 3:

So here's the thing over the last year and a half this point, kids have learned a whole lot. Um, I think in many ways they learned a lot more than they would have in a traditional classroom. Um, I think that we can't date that element. So for example, like my eight year old has learned how to cause, you know, look, I'm not going to be everyday you home all day, you're going to learn how to do something. Right? Like you learn, she learned how she learned how to clean. She's learned. She's learned a lot. It's, you're gonna have to paint like that somebody has to do the deck. Right. Um, so like she's learned all of these other skills in addition to like the development things that just come along with being, um, in our society, uh, that, that she would not necessarily learn in the classroom. She's also learned like things that I would have never taught. She goes, um, she has had time to like do Nate. Right. Um, and she goes down to the Creek and she's like, I want to check the pH balance in the Creek. And I'm like, okay, girl, um, there's all of this learning that she did, um, that I appreciate. And I value in ways that I, that I, that, that traditional education doesn't always lend itself to, in such a natural way. Um, she she's found like natural interests she's found, um, ways. She found creative ways to connect with her friends. Like not like she had at one point, like they were doing what we used to do in the olden days, right. In pal. Um, but she didn't have me like dropping off letters to the mailbox and her friends and they would write back, um, because they couldn't see each other. And I'm like, you know, we can just video chat. I know, mom, this is the new way to do, um, writing letters rather than video chatting. So most of the way, no way, no way to do it. So, um, so I think that, uh, it also offered her an opportunity to think in more creative or less. I don't know if that's more creative or less creative in ways that she doesn't traditionally think. Um, so, um, when it comes to academic, I think that, um, what students didn't learn, they will catch up if it is truly important to their academic well-being, um, they will catch up. And I say that because I think now is also an opportunity for teachers to think about things that they are teaching and whether or not they are actually valuable to the education of the students. Like what now in our curriculum, can we say, you know, all that important, this isn't that foundational to all the other things that they will learn, this isn't essential to their critical thinking. Um, what are those things that teachers can now look at curriculum and do something different so that students can feel as prepared as they need? I feel like they're going to progress their educational career and beyond.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I love that kind of strength mindset, too, looking at what kids have learned outside of school during the pandemic, but also thinking about how could we use this time to recalibrate what's happening inside our schools. Um, and there's, uh, there seems to be a real opportunity for districts and states to think about that. The question is like, will they, do they have that space or time or ability? Um, and I'm thinking about how that plays out with, um, I know president Biden not too long ago, made an announcement or states that even if they didn't do their standardized assessments in two, in 2020, that they should be thinking about reinstating those in 2021. So how do we, how do we make those things balanced? Um, and do states and districts actually have an opportunity to recalibrate what's happening inside a classroom

Speaker 3:

That is, that is essential. Do teachers have for educators have time tools and training to do the things that we are being, we are now asking them. And if I'm honest, I feel like they have, they have the tools and my tools. I mean like resources, particularly funding, because there's lots of federal funding coming in time. Time is always a thing that we are training is where I am most. I think the educators now have the most person, I don't know that they have, um, a tool belt of strategies or ideas or creativity to pull from in order to do something. And that's what, that's what works. I think that it's going to be incumbent on parents as much as possible community members, as much as possible to voice what they think education should look like. Um, and that's difficult when you don't understand all of the various moving parts in education, but as much as possible for parents, community members to engage in, um, any thoughts or does that come up in, in, in their communities, um, any ideas that they have, even if they think our ideas are ridiculous or they don't make sense or whatever, it is just be bold enough to share those ideas, because even if they don't use that exact idea, maybe they will use an idea like or similar, or it will jargon sort of idea. Um, but I think the resources, the tools there, uh, as the federal government begins to say, Hey, you know, we, we can do something different in education. We should do something different, especially over thinking about what, um, I think this is the very first year that I able to be funded fully. So students with this, that bright ever, ever in the history of the law,

Speaker 2:

Exciting and very sad at the same time.

Speaker 3:

Um, so it will be fully funded, but here's the thing. If districts don't know how to use that money, well then the funded, like we're not going to get any results

Speaker 2:

As a parent, standardized tests coming next year, 2021. Um, looking at some of the research, there was one piece of research from policy analysis for California education. And they looked at 98,000 students. This was last fall and they found that with second graders, um, they were 26% behind where they should have been at that point, this school year. And with third graders, they were almost 33% behind. And that was almost a year ago. Um, so as a parent, I've got standardized assessments on the brain that's coming up. Um, should we be testing our kids, knowing that research says they're all going to kind of be behind? What, what would you do as a parent?

Speaker 3:

Oh, this is actually my daughter's. It will be her first she's in third grade. It will be her first year, take a traditional standardized standardized test that, that all of the, like it's their first gateway. Right. And I, I, here's the thing. I don't mind to take a test. See what happens on the test. What I do mind is the way that, and what we gleaned from, what are we, why are we using this test? Are we using it to say that teachers aren't performing or we're using it to say that our students are deficient? What is, what is behind the use of the test? So that for me is always an ongoing question and questions that I will continue to ask before I let my child in what for her will be seven days of standardized tests. Um, so, and it's not all day, of course, it's like three hours a day, but for seven days. Um, so especially when you're eight, okay, you don't have to do this test. We know you might be a little bit behind, but I think that just like people are just interested in knowing where it's important for us to understand why you want to know that. Um, and what, what are you using that data for? Because it doesn't mean that your child is efficient. It means that they don't know this thing, that's on this test on this day. Right. Um, and it's all that it means. So I think that we use testing to be more than what it is. Um, and I just caution.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. My hope, you know, knowing that we've had over a year, what, how many months of interrupted learning, um, missed gaps in instruction, unfinished learning like our kids, if we're looking at like benchmarks and standards, it would only make sense that the majority of them are behind whatever behind means, right? Whatever arbitrary benchmark we've said, I just keep going back and forth with the purpose of a standardized assessment. Are we going to use that this upcoming year to say, all right, like we need to recalibrate where everybody is because we're all like 75% of our kids are, are behind or are we going to use that? Like, you know, I taught in Florida. So if the kids didn't make a certain score on a test, he didn't go on to fourth grade. Right.

Speaker 3:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Back to your whole concept of like the purpose of an assessment. So what should we do? Like, what should we be doing? So let's stigmatize our kids. That's what is this? Is this just additional trauma that we're going to add onto our kids? I know your daughter, even though she's eight, like she'll know what her score is.

Speaker 3:

She'll know. She will know. She, she, she, if I let her know, she would know, and I will never let her know. There's no, like there's no value. There, there is no value in her knowing what, the number that has been assigned to her for whatever reason. I just don't. I don't think that, that an official, um, I think what is beneficial for her to say, Hey, let's put our boat, let's park on, um, our, our, our, our reading comprehension. Right? So what are the elements in the testing that we need to work on or shore up, but the actual member? No, she's probably gonna know that, oh, there is no good comes of that. And here's the thing. And, and the truth is her number will probably be very high. No, good. I don't want her to have this like, idea. Like I am so fantastic and I am so brilliant and I am so smart because this test is that, um, based on whatever number that I am, that I don't need her to have that either like, I will, I will make sure she has all the stuff she needs and I don't want her to just buy that. So, um, yeah. I don't know the number, but will know, like, here's what, here's what you're selling and here's where we can do something different.

Speaker 2:

So it sounds like, uh, Dr. COE's that you are not worried about academic learning loss with your daughter. Um, what advice might you give to other parents and caregivers who might be worried?

Speaker 3:

All right. If you are aware, I would say a lot of people are in the same exact position, right. Um, worrying is not going to help us. Okay. That's that's, that's, that's that's me. He can put that to the side for just a second, as much as we can. Right. And think about what we can think about where our students are. Um, think about how we support and encourage their emotional development, because that's, what's going to help us propel their academic develop. So if we can make sure that you're confident, even if you still can't read, if you're still confident, I can make enough to believe that there's nothing you can't learn. There's nothing you can't do eventually. Then I think that that is going to be our best, our best bet at catching, whatever catching up means, um, or wherever your student is, um, protecting them up eventually. So to shore up the emotional ability, Nexion social, all of those things, um, for your child right now, I don't feel invincible.

Speaker 2:

All those life skills that make successful adults.

Speaker 3:

Exactly.

Speaker 2:

If I could wave a magic wand and change our whole philosophy around education as a nation, I think it would be an essence. What you just said, that we shift from this deficit mindset. Here's the test. Here's what you don't know. Here's your learning loss to a based mindset. You don't know this yet, but here's how we're going to get there. And these are the skills you need in order and the mindset you need in order to get yourself there. So making that switch from deficit-based to strengths-based, I think what an opportunity we have right now to do that, if the districts and states would just listen to us, listen to Meghan, and Jamella

Speaker 3:

Easy, easy, all of the educations problems and these last, like 10, 15 minutes

Speaker 2:

Jimmy level, you'd let our audience know where they can find you.

Speaker 3:

Oh, absolutely. So I am on Twitter and Instagram, LinkedIn, um, at Jamella Kohl's. So that's at J E M E L L E H D O E S at Jamella I'm on all platforms. And you can also email me@gatotytwentyatgmail.org at Jake poles at Mt. Polio.

Speaker 2:

And that 2014. And your email is because you were the teacher of the year in Georgia, or the state of Georgia in the year 2014. Congratulations.

Speaker 3:

Thanks so much.

Speaker 2:

All right. Jamella um, final words of wisdom for our parent audience. Ooh,

Speaker 3:

All right. This year we have an opportunity to help teachers radically imagine something different, be bold in what ever ideas that you have, share, whatever ideas that you have. And remember that change doesn't happen overnight average friend, he says Rome wasn't built in a day, but a Britain was laid. So think about what you all laid today to help your child be successful tomorrow.

Speaker 2:

That is so beautiful. And what a perfect place to end, uh, Dr. Jamila nurse. Thank you so much for being a guest on today's episode of, to the core.

Speaker 3:

Thank you for having

Speaker 2:

All right into our audience. We'll post some links in the show notes, as well as ways to connect with Dr. COE's and we look forward to hearing from you, um, or being with you, I should say next Tuesday on to the core. Thanks everybody.

Speaker 4:

[inaudible][inaudible].